…until it is someone with narcissistic personality disorder, psychopathy and sociopathy, but mostly NPD.
EDIT: There seems to be some misunderstandings about this post. It is not an attack on this community or the users here, it’s just a general vent I have for the type of people that claim to be anti-ableist until it is something they don’t like.
Thank you for posting this, I understand the nuance of this and agree that folks who have been through trauma and come out of it with these understandable reactions and coping mechanisms are not necessarily to blame. I would rather focus on healing and helping.
However, quick aside there’s no such thing as ‘sociopathy’, even officially it’s now called ‘ASPD’. Just thought you should know!
It’s not “something we don’t like”.
If that’s your take I’m not sure what reaction you’re looking for.
Obviously people should get the support/help they need.
We’re literally too busy doing damage control. This is just the ‘but why don’t you tolerate intolerance’ argument. I’m sure there are people struggling with this stuff who manage to avoid hurting and manipulating the people around them, and that’s great for them.
But we also live in a world rife with abuse and exploitation, and we won’t get past it by just ignoring manipulation. We’ve got all these other people who’ve been victimized, so we kind of need to focus on them with this particular pattern.
You can’t just will someone else to stop abusing others and face their own shit, and frankly it’s incredibly hard to tell the difference between an abuser in the calm part of their cycle and someone who’s stopped repeating it.
For me the litmus test there is honesty. I’ve given people I’ve known were manipulative another chance, but if they show that their interactions are still based in fundamental dishonesty, what am I supposed to do with that? Sacrifice myself endlessly in the hopes that they decide to stop treating me like a punching bag?
I think not. I think I’ll be out here keeping an eye out for dishonesty at the root of people’s interactions with others and run like hell when I find it so I don’t waste another second of my life being controlled and tormented.
How come OP’s talking about NPD, which is a disability, and you’re talking about abusers? NPD isn’t abuse. Did you reply to the wrong post by mistake?
‘but why don’t you tolerate intolerance’ argument
This was my exact thought. This seems like someone trying to excuse this shit. You can dress it up as just a personality disorder, but these personality types are toxic.
This is the most NPD post ever trying to make this comparison. People with disabilities or mental disorders that hurt people when unmanaged SHOULD be treated differently. No it’s not the same thing as ensuring blind or people in wheel chairs can get around without assistance or making sure people with autism get job opportunities.
I hope the responses here resonate with you and help you clear up misunderstandings you have.
What kind of response are you expecting? Or is this just a rant/vent? I don’t agree with your statement entirely, many people would also want people with NPD, psychopathy or sociopathy to get support. The problem, however, is that it is really hard for most to give people with strong narcissistic or manipulative traits the support they need. Similarly, I also have compassion with pedophiles and wish them the support they need. But obviously I don’t want them to be enabled (or even allowed) to follow their sexuality. Same goes for people with narcissistic and manipulative traits. I want them to get support but not be enabled or allowed to hurt or manipulate others.
Recently I stumbled upon this podcast called “The Bright Sessions” where they basically envision neurodivergent people and/or people with mental disorders as having superhuman powers. There also is a character that might fall into your description of people who are not treated with compassion. The podcast really explores what that means and how compassion can look like with a person like that.
ETA: and this comes from a person who has been traumatized over decades by various people with strong narcissistic traits.
NPD doesn’t cause manipulation. And people with NPD aren’t more likely to abuse others.
As someone with a NPD parent I don’t know if I could agree with you. But yeah, me and my siblings might not be on the good statistics.
Do you have any references to back up this claim? From personal experience I most strongly disagree with your statement. I have suffered all my life from narcissistic people and even many years of therapy were not sufficient to surpass my childhood trauma.
Also, if you don’t want to take a subjective perspective there is really a looot of research that shows how abusive people with NPD are.
I could go on citing studies on this. I wonder what counter-evidence you’ll be able to produce.
Lack of empathy isn’t abuse. Empathy is a private, personal feeling. Other people’s feelings are not abuse. Neurotypical society encourages a toxic dynamic where you must feel certain ways about other people in your own head, or you are a so-called abuser. A person who is not feeling affective empathy is perfectly capable of cognitive empathy and of practicing ethics and morality. Affective empathy is a feeling. Cognitive empathy is knowledge. Ethics and morality are theories and behaviours. And I can report from my own experiences and those of other people living with NPD, that the reason we have lower empathy on average is that we can choose whether to have empathy. We are perfectly capable of feeling the feelings of others, but we can also block that feeling when it’s irrelevant. We can feel and understand others’ feelings in order to develop our sense of ethics, but we can turn it off when it’s a hindrance. If a man is drunk and shouting at me for being trans, I don’t want to feel empathy for his hatred of me. I turn my empathy off. If I’m talking to a woman who had a miscarriage, I can turn my empathy off while still showing sympathy. I know miscarriages are bad, I know how horrible they feel, I just don’t want to also feel that way. The neurotypical demand that everyone feel empathy at all is unreasonable. Neurotypicals say “People with NPD don’t choose to suffer when I feel bad. That’s abuse”. I disagree. And I don’t believe neurotypicals feel empathy at all times either. Their empathy shuts off when it’s important. pwNPD just have more control, do it more often. There’s nothing wrong with that. Hyperempathy is a symptom associated with disorders like BPD and sometimes even NPD, and it’s a lot worse than selective empathy. People with hyperempathy can’t function when someone is upset. They sometimes end up covering over and ignoring conflicts and being unable to resolve them because it hurts too much to think about a problem. That’s toxic. Yes, selective empathy can be used to inflict harm with fewer consequences, but so can a kitchen knife, and people who cook are not evil abusers. Nor are people living with NPD. And if lack of empathy made us abusers, then people with autism would be as well. They are not, and we are not.
That’s my response to the first link you showed. As you can see, I’ve thought a whole lot about this topic and have very strong feelings. From my point of view, this is someone saying “Your private thoughts are different from other people’s. That’s abuse!” You can see why this triggers me. I think it’s best now if I calm down, rather than discussing all the links you posted. You are free to discuss what I’ve said, and if I’m calm enough I’ll try to answer. I’d like to convince you of my point of view, at least with empathy. I am not sure I have the wherewithal to discuss everything you’ve linked.
You did not read any further then the very first link and already claim that I’m wrong? Also, most of what you wrote is probably aligned with your own emotions but logically doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I don’t want to trigger you and please take care of yourself. But please also refrain from spamming this thread with made up claims because you feel threatened by them. Because in doing so you actually really prove your lack of empathy and how you don’t care about others.
You are not the only one triggered by this topic. Surviving parents with NPD and multiple similar longterm romantic relationships mean I get triggered as well if someone wants to tell me that people like these are not abusive. And yes, the abuse was directly linked to narcissistic traits in each case. So don’t tell me otherwise unless you can prove it.
If you really want to convince me, you would need to link to actual research or anything that can show how NPD and abusiveness are not linked. Just by telling personal anecdotes you are not convincing anyone, the opposite actually.
The problem is that people with those disorders are the ones most likely to be the abusers. They are also the least likely to seek out help. There’s a reason it’s called “The Dark Triad”.
