- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
[a sign reads FEMINIST CONFERENCE next to a closed door, a blue character shrugs and says…]
I don’t care
[next to the same door, the sign now says RESTRICTED FEMINIST CONFERENCE WOMEN ONLY, there are now four blue characters desperately banging on the door, one is reduced to tears on the floor, they are shouting]
DISCRIMINATION
SO UNFAIR!!!
LET US IINN!!
MISANDRY
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How much you bet that the creator of this comic is now a huge TERF?
Here we are; a controversial take on something almost accurate. The context is there for the feminist - women only organisations as safe spaces for women to talk about the issues the patriarchy inflicts upon them.
However, the implication goes beyond the context - “man bad, no want woman safe space” is heavily implied; it’s there but just deniable enough to ragebait, allowing a feminist talking point reply. An excellent trolling strategy, though possibly a self defeating one.
The trouble is, this tactic tends to alienate rather than convert. As a historical example; Megalia’s use of this tactic created pushback from the very group it sought to defeat. Is this a measure of success, or is it an indication of self defeating anger? Tricky call.
Real-space example: a women’s-only art installation/lounge. It was only a matter of time before it went to court. I think at one point they (perhaps jokingly) proposed converting it to a bathroom to allow legal discrimination. (and that still wouldn’t be the smelliest exhibition in Mona)
I feel that half the problem is pushy people and the other half is those same people getting FOMO.
A normal person isn’t going to care, but people that see legitimately everything as ‘their prerogative to anything they want’ are the types that are going to have anger, coursing in their veins, the second they get a whiff of something ‘exclusive’ that they are not privy to.
I took psychic damage. I’m especially annoyed by the part where they rendered it at the slanted pixelated low resolution, and then upscaled it with a bilinear or bicubic interpolation.
I draw in MSPaint, and used the rotate text tool.
Don’t overthink it, occam’s razor or something.
Oh my. You’re Bad.
I am.
Cool! Thanks for sharing your methods. I like your stick figures and your lines.
If I try to do that with a mouse, it looks like an ECG.
Thanks, much appreciated :)
I don’t get it… People should have different reaction to equality and supremacy. My reaction would be exactly this if it would be “conference on white people” and “whites only conference”.
while I do get the ick from restrictive language like that, my main problem with the second sign would be that I’m 98% sure that it’s indicative that the “feminists” are actually terfs and by “women only” they mean “no <t-slur>s”
and by “women only” they mean “no <t-slur>s”
Why would TERFs not allow TERFs? That makes no sense!?
I’m assuming this is a joke that went over people’s heads
Look up what the E in TERF stands for.
I have no idea what any of those letters stand for lol
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist
I try not to get bent out of shape about it but formal safe spaces never made sense to me conceptually. Yes, everyone should have a space to feel safe and accepted but we’re doing piss poor as a society when your arbitrary membership in a marginalized group is the best shot to find that.
They’re a weak imitation of proper tight knit communities and 3rd spaces. They just happen to have some benefit because the membership self selects for similar life views. There’s nothing there that people weren’t getting at, say, a Victorian tea party, a laundry group or an AME church.
Neither side of the debate in this comment section is wrong but they’re talking about two sides of the same coin. Marginalized groups feel modern isolation much more acutely because they had fewer spaces to begin with. Cishet guys feel the isolation as well but can’t voice it in these discussions because “they’re accepted everywhere” and “power dynamics make it different”.
Those statements may be somewhat true but that offers no solution to the problem, not in the way that a safe space offers a simple constructive answer. It’s unfortunate because manosphere and fascist spaces capitalize on those vulnerable men with the same messaging and terminology.
These conversations shouldn’t be about defending one group’s right to create these spaces while delicately limiting that right for another group. They should be about why we fundamentally feel the need for these formal spaces at all…
…
Spoiler
it’s always material conditions and resource distribution
For real.
This is literally what happens in Lemmy’s women-only sub. Posters are still complaining about it in comments below.
Ugh… I fear for the future of my sex. Sometimes, I want to slap some basic respect into other guys. Nothing fancy or philosophical, just “don’t be a dick, leave other human beings in peace” kind of common sense. Yet it feels like a losing battle.
Also the ‘equal rights equal fights’ rhetoric I often see on here and reddit. Like seriously? Are we children?
When have you ever been in a situation where you have to punch a woman? It’s such a ridiculous argument. I don’t understand why women wanting to be paid as much as a man for the same job is equivalent to getting involved in physical fights. ‘hey, you want to be paid fairly? Better be able to hold your own in the ring! No complaining allowed, you wanted this!’
Ugh… I fear for the future of my sex. Sometimes, I want to slap some basic respect into other guys. Nothing fancy or philosophical, just “don’t be a dick, leave other human beings in peace” kind of common sense. Yet it feels like a losing battle.
The problem isn’t restricted to one sex/gender. I may have commented below, with what I can confidently say is a politically unpopular opinion, but the discussion quickly degenerated into claims that I was ‘mansplaining’ and being told to ‘fuck off’ and shut up.
The problem isn’t restricted to one sex/gender.
Perhaps not.
…And yeah, there’s all sorts of flavors of hostility even here on Lemmy.
But the manosphere seems to be “winning” their culture war, at least here in the US, compared to whatever the equivalent problem on the other end is. That feels like the bigger problem.
From personal experience posting my content on multiple platforms, Lemmy’s userbase is by far the most fragile one regarding sexism.
Yes, even worse than Reddit, where this very comic had its comment section locked by the rcomics mods due to the hundreds of pissed off dudes crying in the comments. At least they get downvoted on Reddit. Lemmy really is dudebro land, and needs to fix that if it wants to grow further (which I would like as a Lemmy enjoyer).
I’ve said this a few times already, and it usually makes Lemmy users uncomfortable, so I’ll keep repeating it as often as necessary.
Us Lemmy dudebros obviously cannot fully appreciate your level of rage-baiting.
So I’ll tell ya what: since we are too fragile for your upscale messaging, feel free to take it somewhere else. Your content, and you, are not welcome here at !comicstrips.
This is insane overreaction.
This is Lemmy, we don’t have advertisers to appeal to so we don’t have to sterilize our content for their sake.
This person’s posts ruffles feathers. That’s okay, people can have their feathers ruffled. I don’t see any significant harassment, name calling, hate speech as a result of this poster or their posts, so I can’t fathom any reason to react this way. People are allowed to be uncomfortable, people are allowed to disagree; the existence of controversy or disagreement or discussion in and of itself is not indicative of a problem.
We have got to stop acting like approaching a caution sign on the road is the same thing as experiencing a car accident.
Are you being serious?
Is this the official stance of the new mod team or a sarcastic reply?
Legitimately can’t tell.
Intentionally rage baiting comics don’t really belong here.
You’re intentionally inviting uncivil discourse which is not in line with Rule 1: Keep it Civil.
Going through the comments there’s a lot of flame baiting going and posts like this usually generate a ton of reports due to things getting out of hand very quickly.
Maybe a better sub for this type of content would be [email protected]?
You fundamentally misunderstand what a comic is. You also clearly do not know what a rage comic is. It’s not a good look for someone picking up mod duties on a comics community. I would suggest looking at other successful/popular comic communities around the internet (start with r/comics on Reddit for example, there’s other places worth investigating too).
I’ve been contributing here for a year without any previous issues. Nobody from within the community has ever told me that my content doesn’t belong here. It usually gets good scores/votes. This is the first time I’m getting this demand, and it’s coming from a brand new mod team, so I’m going to pretend I didn’t read this comment and give you time to think it through properly.
Getting rid of content that generates conversation will leave you with a dull or dead community soon enough. Alienating people who have been contributing content regularly for a while won’t help. That’s probably not your end goal.
I acknowledge that perhaps comparing your comics to ragecomics was incorrect and insulting to you, I apologize for that.
That being said your posts that tend to get the most comments are your most divisive comics like this. It’s not that you’re generating insightful conversation, you’re simply provoking a response through divisive or inflammatory messaging.
The problem comes from the insult slinging the content invites along with the reports that come out of it. Doesn’t help when the flames are fanned by commenting “cry more”. It feels like you might thrive off of rage-baiting like this since you seem to be aware of the headache your content is causing to mods as you remarked that this very comic was locked on /r/comics.
Doesn’t help when the flames are fanned by commenting “cry more”.
Fair assessment. I deleted the “cry more” comment and another similar one, my apologies, those are indeed uncivil. However, I would like to remind you that until very recently this community was entirely unmoderated, and that slinging insults at reactionaries / sexist / racist folks was the only way to make them go away. I can adjust that behavior now that the place is (hopefully) properly moderated, but it’s a different request from the “you are unwelcome here” that your colleague opened with, nor was the “did I stutter” they followed it up with when I was trying to clarify the situation a civil response tbh.
It feels like you might thrive off of rage-baiting like this
My comics are satirical. The point of satire is that it stings when it hits the correct notes. If you think social/political satire doesn’t belong in this community, then you should add it to the rules. But that would mean banning a lot of the most famous / classic comics of all time, such as The Far Side, Peanuts, Mad Magazine, Dilbert… hell even Astérix is straight up satire.
Satire is very different from ragebait: it’s meant to make people think about preconceptions they have, about topics they don’t usually question, by presenting them under a different light that exposes the fundamental hypocrisy behind that situation. Ragebait is just stuff made to piss people off for fun. I don’t do such content.
aware of the headache your content is causing to mods as you remarked that this very comic was locked on /r/comics
I am in good terms with the mods of r/comics. We have regular conversations, and never once have they accused my content of being ragebait, complained that I was uncivil (although to be fair the place is actually moderated so I can just report comments over there), or complained that my comics aren’t comics. Quite the opposite actually, they enjoy that I (and other popular cartoonists) act as a magnet for unmasking bigots, it helps them get rid of those people.
They locked the thread because it was attracting an overwhelming number of men’s right activists, so many more than usual that it had to be a raid from a third party community. It wasn’t because they had any issue with the content of the comic or with the discourse that was happening under it (actually there was some pretty good discourse regarding transphobia if the comic is seen under a specific prism that I didn’t take into account, which is healthy and important discourse).
My comment that spawned this entire conversation was a commentary on a deep sexism issue that Lemmy has to deal with, especially in unmoderated or poorly moderated communities. Whether I continue posting content here or not, those people will still be there, and you’ll have to deal with them sooner or later. Keep that in mind.
All in all, I understand that it’s hard to take over a husk of a community and turn it into something better. If you think I don’t fit, then fine, your place your rules. Just make sure that decision fits with what the community actually wants (doesn’t seem to fit with the votes / scores my content gets + nobody in this community has ever told me my content doesn’t belong here), and that everyone here understands what your definition of a comic is, otherwise you’re exposing yourself to fragmenting or dulling the community, which is something I don’t want to happen even if I do get excluded, as this is the kind of stuff that alienates Fediverse users and hurts Lemmy’s overall popularity.
Good luck figuring this all out. Thanks for actually making a proper detailed comment about it. If you genuinely think my content doesn’t belong here, then just ban me and be done with it, would be better than your colleague’s confusing attempt at trying to act tough. Otherwise I’ll continue posting on the usual schedule, as I’ve been doing for a year now. I enjoy the conversations in here, sometimes it mostly generates rage and negative reactions sure (especially when it’s about sexism tbh), but most of the time they’re constructive and interesting. See you tomorrow… or never I guess, depending on how you feel. Your move. Good night.
Pretty sure I didn’t stutter.
This is not the correct hill to die on.
If you confidently feel that I am unwelcome here, why not just ban me and be done with it?
You’ll also need to ban some of the other regulars who have been contributing content to this place for a long time now. You might want to have a serious inner discussion within your team and with the community about what a comic actually is. A good start would be looking at other successful/popular comic communities around the internet (start with r/comics on Reddit for example, there’s other places worth investigating too).
Getting rid of content that generates conversation will leave you with a dull or dead community soon enough. Alienating people who have been contributing content regularly for a while won’t help. That’s probably not your end goal.
Take some time to think about it, I’ll head out for now. Good night.
You come into this community with bad faith posts simply to start arguments, and are told you’re not welcome here. If you continue with said behavior, you will be banned. This has been your warning. Enjoy your evening!
I share comics in Lemmy’s main comics community.
They’re shared in good faith, with the goal of being relatable and thought provoking content. As all comics are, that’s precisely the reason why people make comics, especially satirical ones. I have better things to do with my life than creating chaos for the sake of chaos.
This comic has a good score, a good upvote % ratio, has generated some interesting conversations (and some chaos too, sure).
You told me I am unwelcome in response to a comment that has 89 upvotes vs 20 downvotes at the time of writing this. Are you sure that you understand the community you are representing / moderating? Seems like there’s an obvious rift here.
In the end it’s up to you, and if you want me gone, then I’ll be gone, I’m not here to argue with you. I’d just like to spare everyone (you included) the headache of whatever happens next if you start power tripping. It would lead to the usual lemmy community split, fragmenting the userbase even more, etc. which is not desirable for any of us.
You should really think this through, starting with learning what a comic is, and looking at what the community wants or doesn’t want to see here.
Lemmitors when women make political comics:
I think at least part of that comes from the fact that the most vocal feminist and anti-misogynist (and ant-racism, etc.) instances get defederated by the admins of big instances like .world which tends to concentrate the more reactionary elements into instances like .world even though it has the larger user base. Since the people who would tend to be the most vocal fighting back against the dudebro types are in a different section of the fediverse that .world cuts itself off from, those voices aren’t heard and so the bigger chunk of lemmy (.world) gets a well deserved reputation for being worse than reddit in terms of crying, fragile (and white) men being overrepresented in the user base.
Luckily I haven’t been exposed to much of that behaviour on my local instance. Which instances/communities are you finding all these jerks at? (I’ve blocked a couple for unrelated reasons so maybe I’m not seeing them.)
It’s the ultimate consequence of going all in on recruiting people from reddit, which I have been trying to tell people for years. You’re not making the fediverse better, you’re making it more reddity. There’s no point in leaving reddit while bringing the worst of the culture.
There’s also some element that “alternative sites” tend to accumulate the people banned from the primary site. Luckily the strong left-leaning initial crowd kept most of the bigotry at bay during the formative years, but I really dislike that in general-purpose instances, many have failed to create much original culture distinct from reddit. Lemmy isn’t reddit, and that can be a good thing.
Please do. Uncomfortable is good.
That’s where learning happens!
That’s what my pappy would say as he was beating the shit out of me.
Damn I am tired of sexist people like you. Stop badmouthing men if your brain is too smooth to understand that “dick” can be a female too. Write no dick behavior instead, you sexist idiot. Might as well start doing memes with “no black people allowed” sign
Calling your hypothetical “dick” “a female” is not helping your case… (it also sounds rather funny the way I said it hehe)
Okay then let it be asshole. Everyone has one innit?
The not so funny meaning of the statement was supposed to be that using female as a noun is usually considered offensive when talking about humans.
I’m not sure how that or the possible alternative and more amusing interpretation of implying your penis being a female of it’s species, deserves being called an asshole.
Also I don’t think I understood your second sentence because to my knowledge just under 50% of humans would be expected to have a dick which is notably less than everyone.
deleted by creator
it usually makes Lemmy users uncomfortable, so I’ll keep repeating it as often as necessary.
Lol good job.
I appreciate you posting this kind of stuff!
Lemmy really is dudebro land
I feel this every time there is a post or comment about how women should have bigger pockets in our jeans and pants.
Are there really dudes defending fake/small pockets on women’s clothes? That’s a new level of…I don’t even know what.
lol Yeah it happens. They don’t so much defend them, more argue with women that it’s our fault for buying pants with small pockets, even though there aren’t many options. Or since women like our pants so tight, pockets would look wrong to stuff them full, when all we want is to be able to carry a few items like ID, credit card, and a small amount of cash. And there is always someone who links to a search for “women’s pants deep pockets” on websites like Old Navy or The Gap thrown around like that actually means those pants have deep pockets, when they frequently have those useless half pockets. Or that women should just wear men’s pants even though they don’t fit women’s bodies and are uncomfortable.
It’s a misunderstanding of what women are actually asking for, so instead of admitting they don’t understand, they double down and argue with women that we don’t really want that 🤷♀️
That is some wild shit
I HATE tight pants. It’s so offensive that women’s clothing is so restrictive and tight, meanwhile men can wear the baggiest clothing and nobody blinks an eye
Agreed. More options would be better, but companies are only into making cheap fast fashion so we have to buy clothes more often.
I may not blink an eye, but I will have a raised eyebrow.
I HATE tight pants.
Just buy bigger pants? Issue solved, right?
This does not work when the clothing is all spandex infused. If I were to buy a bigger size jean then they would be super tight still in the leg, just just fall down from the waist and crotch. Women’s clothing sucks
Just buy bigger pants?
This doesn’t actually solve the issue. Buying bigger pants means the waist doesn’t fit, so you have to wear a belt. Which is fine. But when I wear pants with a waist that is too big, it bunches in places and is uncomfortable when I sit down and lean back. It can also cause weird gapping in the waistband that leaves underwear exposed for everyone to see.
This is why I don’t just “buy men’s pants and wear a belt”, like I’ve been told to do over and over again. Men’s clothes don’t fit my body and the excess fabric bunches causing uncomfortable pressure points on my back and waist. I already have enough back issues, I don’t want pants that cause even more.
The best solution is to give women more options. I know it’s “the trend” for women to wear tight fitting clothes, however, there are significant number of women that don’t like all of our clothes to be tight. Clothing companies would still make money, but they prefer to make cheap fast fashion garbage that falls apart quickly and forces women to buy clothes more often. Instead women get told that we only want to wear tight clothes because we want to be sexy and we since have no pockets we have to buy purses or we get told we look frumpy and gross in baggy clothes.
I am sorry you have experienced that. It is my hope that we have simply created a place where people feel more comfortable discussing and expressing uninformed opinions with an open mind toward learning and conversation rather than a safe place for bigots.
due to the hundreds of pissed off dudes crying in the comments
Huh, almost like the comic is sexist. Who’d had thunk?
It’s not
Yeah one time I accidentally commented in one of the women’s space community, as I thought it was only a meme aimed at women. The mod both recognized it was an honest mistake, and noted it actually added the conversation so they kept it up but said something along the lines of “thank you this is great but this is also a women’s only space, please don’t do it again” and they were very respectful about it. So I just lurked in that comments section as to respect the rules
Point is I too would probably be upset if my community was overran with “as a man”. What’s that one comic strip with the guy always going oh no, basically in the one I’m thinking of, they carve out their own niche, but then the majority comes in and kicks them out
Like is my heart in the right place, yes I think so, but would it lead to a situation like that, also yes
But I don’t see the point of people throwing a fit. Like go a general community like one of the Asks and throw it there. Like I fundamentally don’t understand people going “waaah I can’t be a part of something I didn’t want to be in”
It reminds me of one of my friends upset he wasn’t invited to one of our line gaming get together, despite the fact they hate the game
WHAT I MISSING I DONT GET IT
I think what’s missing is the request to be more special than others.
There are aquarium groups, but I’ve never seen them comment that you should shut up if you don’t own an aquarium. There is a “dull men” group, and I never saw them trying to forbid someone to speak in their room if they are too interesting or too female.
If you don’t want out-group people to participate, your solution is not a platform that allows everybody to participate, and then scold people if they do. It just makes it seem like it’s a deliberate setup to be able to tell people “You made a mistake. You have the wrong gender” - and if not that, they at least demand special treatment among the equals on Lemmy, also not a character trait that people appreciate.
It doesn’t feel good to feel excluded. Being told that you’re not wanted in a space/event/group makes people have an immediate reaction. I will certainly let people have their spaces, I’m just offering why I think it happens. Like you saying about the friend that wasn’t invited. The friend being upset wasn’t upset because he wanted involved in that game. They were upset because they weren’t invited. That can make you feel unimportant, overlooked, or forgotten about. In terms of friendship, it’s better to make the offer and let the person make their own decision. Unless of course you have invited the person in the past and they like blew up at you for even asking about something you know they hate. In that case I’d say not inviting is best.
Speaks to our primate nature.
The comic you’re thinking of is by webcomicname, and… it’s better than my comic at making the same point tbh, I love their work.
I also commented there by accident once because I didn’t read the community name. They politely asked me to refrain from doing so. I was embarrassed, and have been more careful.
Apparently for some people this is unacceptable.
The same for me. I later just blocked the community because I will definitely forget to check again and then comment and I don’t want to be an annoyance.
That’s exactly how I got Perma banned from Reddit I didn’t check the subs name before commenting with a different account. Oh well, the place is a shit hole anyway
Eh, happened to me here as well once. Some mods are … not getting enough fresh air. And they migrated from reddit as well.
When you’re allowed everywhere by default , it can bruise something in your brain when you hit a closed door.
Now couple that with generations of bullshit tropes about women-only spaces being either lesbian pillow fight fantasies or penis-slicing plotters and shit gets weird
When you’re allowed everywhere by default
Men have been forced to change seats on an airplane for the ‘crime’ of being male while adjacent to children.
It doesn’t help matters to generalize like this.
it can bruise something in your brain when you hit a closed door.
Men’s brains ‘bruise against closed doors’ a lot more often than you assume.
You sure know how to sell it in any case 😁
It reminds me of one of my friends upset he wasn’t invited to one of our line gaming get together, despite the fact they hate the game
it’s not that they weren’t playing the game, it’s that they were excluded from the group. they would have liked the chance to say no, or just to hang out and keep y’all topped up with snacks or whatever i don’t know the exact dynamics of the group. next time, even if they hate the game, invite them and give them a chance to say no. that’s what they want and what does it cost? that way they don’t feel excluded from the group. it’s (probably) that simple
The legit concern I’ve seen is that it doesn’t fit in Lemmy’s structure. You can’t just exclude a demographic, right? But I respectfully disagree, as I believe the expectation is that the community is “read-only” to posters identifying as men, and posting is a perfectly enforceable thing on Lemmy.
Other arguments are just baits for toxicity I’d rather not get into :(. But yeah, one factor is definitely like:
It reminds me of one of my friends upset he wasn’t invited to one of our line gaming get together, despite the fact they hate the game
With that sub I think the problem is when the posts end up in all, which really does fit badly with the structure - then people comment without realizing which community because you tend to forget to check every now and then (or don’t even read side bars at all because there’s so many, so won’t know until you make the mistake of posting there), which then causes those unnecessary whoopsies and extra mod-work.
I fully agree that lemmy is annoyingly misogynistic which in turn means blocking that community only makes the feeds even more male-centric. I don’t know what would solve this
I think it’s fine that people accidentally comment and mods have to do the extra work, it allows the community to stay open for women to be able to find. That was how I found it.
The easiest solution is, when a man gets told that it’s a space for women, he can just say “Oops, sorry about that” and move on, that is how most men respond when asked to not comment there. Its the men who have awful reactions and get argumentative that since a post came up in all, they should be allowed to join and comment whenever they want. Which is just silly.
If they don’t mind all the accidental commenters there, then there’s no issue I guess? And I fully agree that it is stupid to get all pissy about being politely asked to leave, even if you disagree with a mod policy like that. Just walk away and don’t be a jerk, it’s not that hard jesus christ.
And yes I’ve made the mistake of commenting there too, so I know what lead to that lmao. Though I’m not a man and wasn’t asked to leave, so it’s not exactly the same
Accidental commenters get things explained nicely to them - have a look at any hot post on the comm. You’ll see the copypaste response .
How they respond to that public mod reply is on them.
Yeah I was more worried about all the work that it requires to do, since all the posts I see are basically the very popular ones, and I don’t know how they recognize the unwanted posters without it taking a lot too. I’ve seen topics with a lot of those responses and that seems very frustrating for the mods and the community itself - especially if there’s plenty of the entitled jerks. But if it’s not a problem for the community, then there is no problem
Just walk away and don’t be a jerk, it’s not that hard jesus christ.
You would be surprised how many individuals find this too difficult lol
Yeah, I mean it would be nice for folks to read the rules, but as long as they don’t get nasty when being asked to not comment, it’s not an issue. From what I see hanging out there, it doesn’t seem to be a big deal most of the time. Mods just say their thing and the convo moves on. If the community were marked as private, many women, myself included, likely never would have found that space.
Here’s my take on it:
I think we do deserve a private community of only women where women can have a safe place to talk about whatever they want without men. The problem is that this is not a private community, lemmy and piefed are fundamentally public spaces, not private, it is impossible and unreasonable to have a private community.
Perhaps in the future we’ll gain the ability to make real private communities where users must be approved to view posts, but that’s not today.
The mods of the community have the idea that it’s everyone else’s problem, that tens of thousands of people should go out of their way to remedy the issue by blocking the community just so a couple hundred (thousand?) people can have no responsibility for it.
I participated in the community at the beginning of its existence (despite my username, I am not a guy), and have long since left and blocked it because I really hated how the mods treated others. Maybe it’s changed over the last 6 months or whatever, but they’ve left a permanent impression on me.
AFAIK the expectation is that everything there is publicly viewable, but posting is bound by the rules.
And that’s (IMO) within Lemmy’s structure. Mods can set whatever rules for posting that they want, and it isn’t the only community that’s “exclusive”.
The problem is that this is not a private community, lemmy and piefed are fundamentally public spaces, not private, it is impossible and unreasonable to have a private community.
As of 1.6 Piefed does support ‘private’ (non-federating) communities that only people with certain assigned roles can invite others to: https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/releases/tag/v1.6.0
The mods of the community have the idea that it’s everyone else’s problem, that tens of thousands of people should go out of their way to remedy the issue by blocking the community just so a couple hundred (thousand?) people can have no responsibility for it.
I think it’s kind of wild to expect a community to be open to everyone or not exist at all on the fediverse, along with the idea that this is a huge burden on anyone except the mods of that community who have to clean up the comment section.
One issue with that is visibility. Showing up in an open Fediverse feed is likely how other women discover the community, while a closed one would have more of a “private chat room” kind of structure and feel, right?
I didn’t know that was a feature! In that case, it is reasonable to have a private community, but does WS actually make use of that feature?
Everything else you have said is making strawman out of what I actually said. You’re taking my arguments and pushing them to the very extreme when that is explicitly not what I said or intended.
The first sentence of my comment addresses your second statement. I never said it simply shouldn’t exist, but I said that in the current (at least, my view of the current) state of piefed/lemmy, it’s not possible and not reasonable to have a fully private community.
It’s not a huge burden, you’re right, and I never said it was, but I think it’s important to understand how unfair it is to make many thousands of people undertake an action, regardless of how small it is, just so they don’t accidentally break the community rules and get ridiculed for it.
It’s the mods fault for structuring a community in a way that gives them more work, if they actually used a private community feature or a completely different software that’s intended for this kind of thing, it would be a different story.
Yeah nah mate
Anyone can join. Anyone can read. You’re just asked not to comment because it’s not a space for cismale voices.
I - and you - see HUNDREDS of comms and posts in any random feed that don’t apply to you. You skate over them, don’t even blink. It’s absolutely nbd.
But you need a fucking cone to not post on a single women’s community and it’s some how the community’s fault for expecting you to act like a reasonable human?
Bullshit.
1: I am not cismale, like I’ve said, despite my username, I am not a guy.
2: I try to interact with almost every post I see, I actually do not just “skate over them”, and in my opinion, that’s the expectation for most users of this platform, to interact and not just mindlessly scroll.
3: So when there’s a community that vocally says (THIS GROUP NOT ALLOWED) in the title of every post, you can understand how that might cause someone to feel like shit, like they’ve done something wrong before they’ve ever interacted with the community. Its my belief that the community/mods must take responsibility for this, because the random people didn’t choose to see the community on their feed, there’s no need to be so hostile towards people who never did anything to you.
4: Do not place hate on the hateless. Do place hate upon the hateful. This is my motto, and the way the mods of that community acted firmly violates this principle that I hold dear.
Silly take, if it’s in the rules, and you don’t follow them, that’s on you.
Your feelings, emotions and opinions are irrelevant in such a situation. You don’t get to change the rules simply because you feel attacked because of a rule in a community you are not a part of simply because it happened to show up on your feed.
I have been the guy who commented in one of the Women’s communities. They were very kind and asked me to remove my comment, which I did. Did you have a specific moment that they were super rude to you?
You know you don’t have to interact with every post you see, right?
You can ignore things. In fact you should be. Learning that not everything is for you is an important skill. You are responsible for what you see and interact with on the internet, it is not the job of the content to curate itself to you.
Sure, I don’t have to, that’s why it’s my choice to still engage with people as much as I can. And like I said, I am not cismale, this is not about me, but instead of about the many other people that the community affects.
These people are absolutely not responsible for having something forced upon them suddenly without their consent. How can you think it’s okay to force your ideas and content on others without them giving any permission, and then blame them for getting frustrated?
Maybe it’s changed since the last time I looked at WS, or maybe I’m even misremembering, but every single post has something along the lines of (MEN NOT ALLOWED, PLEASE LEAVE). And looking at the actual content of the posts, everyone is so friendly, from the perspective of a man, can you see how that might be hurtful?
I’ve lived as both a man and… whatever I am now, so I know how lonely men can be, they have minimal support groups, if any at all, and when they need or want to just talk with people, they’re given the cold shoulder or a half-hearted, insincere response. For a man to suddenly see in his feed a vibrant, friendly, even loving community where he specifically isn’t allowed… that hurts.
How can you think it’s okay to force your ideas and content on others without them giving any permission, and then blame _them_ for getting frustrated?
Nothing is being forced on you. Nothing. Not a single thing. It simply exists.
If you get upset about that, that’s on you
What are you talking about? That’s the entire thing we’ve been talking about this entire time. Then tell me, what do you call it when something is done to you non consensually or unwillingly? Yes, it absolutely is being forced on people because it is being pushed to them without them ever agreeing to it. Every community is like this, but the difference with other comms is that they don’t explicitly call out any single group in every post.
At this point, I’m almost tempted to just say you’re a troll, because I seriously can’t imagine how anyone can be so inconsiderate of how the actions of one can make others feel. I feel like every time, I respond to you with a full and complete argument, yet you always nitpick just one tiny thing about it instead of addressing my argument in good faith.
What I hate most about the women-only community is that there are so many interesting topics that I want to chime in, or that I forget to check which community it is before accidentally commenting against the rules, but I don’t wanna block the community because it’s still very interesting to read.
I’d become a woman but that just seems like too much work
you could ask a mod to ban you?
I’ve considered that, but then they’d just have to unban me after my inevitable transition
In my other comment replying to the parent comment, I did that (by accident) and I left this part out but what I wanted to do was go onto ask lemmy or some similar community, link the original post and start a discussion there. Women get to keep they’re space, and men joining the conversation in good faith get to chime in
I also saw one idea floated a while ago is a bot that automatically crossposts from those women only comms into a general community, basically same concept as idea 1 just automated
But like I said in my other comment, while I would love to hop into those conversations, it kinda destroys the idea of women only community as they’d probably eventually be pushed/drowned out of their own space
Yeah, there’s plenty of room for me to run my mouth elsewhere.
I blocked it just to make sure I don’t comment and break their rules. Very simple solution 😀
Which subs are those? I don’t think I have seem them, or I most have missed their rules.
We appreciate the effort
My main motto in life is “Wherever you go. There you are.”. The occasionally spoken corollary is “Don’t be a dick.”
deleted by creator
holy ew, I sincerely hope you were blackout-drunk for those thoughts
a nitpick, though: if a gender is lost, are all transitioners to said gender doing an unethical deed?
deleted by creator
You said if you have a son then you should encourage them to kill themselves. That’s not a “little overboard”.
Not sure what to tell I am in a spiral right now and there is no getting out.
Nope. That isn’t what is happening. What is happening is that we blocked them. I took the extra steps to block the mods. That way their angst and drama doesn’t impact my life. They want a safe space/echo chamber, fine. Why would I care after I’ve blocked them and moved on.
I mean, I accidentally commented on there and apologized when I revealed I was a man and agreed to stop. But I also hate not being able to comment/dissent when I read stuff so I blocked the community.
Yeah, that’s perfectly reasonable. That’s how I discovered it too.
just “don’t be a dick, leave other human beings in peace” kind of common sense.
I would, but feminists didn’t leave atheism (2012) and then gaming (2014) alone. Probably other things before 2012 when I wasn’t aware, and now we are here.
What exactly did feminists do to atheism or gaming?
You stink of incel
I would wager a large sum that you would hypocritically take offense to the notion of using a woman’s (actual or assumed) sexual history as basis to insult her, while readily doing just that to a man, as you just did.
That’s a lot of words for “I’m an incel”
Ooh are we playing nitpick the word meaning? I love this one.
The term incel was invented by a woman to describe herself.
Ooh are we playing nitpick the word meaning?
No. “Incel” was very obviously used as a pejorative in the comment I replied to.
What I’m doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of using sexual history as a value judgment for one sex, while being outraged at it being applied to the other sex.
And they very clearly were using it as shorthand referring to self victimising misogynistic redpill devotees.
Shit man, I’m autistic and picked that up.
but they were lumping it in with a bunch of other stereotypes too, so it’s fine!
ok
I hate it that Lemmy just shoves you whatever sub, I had to manually block those, because I stumble in and shitpost wherever. I also had to block several political subs, because I know I’m flammable.
It’s called curating your own experience and as someone old enough to remember the real internet, i’ll take it over an algo in a heartbeat
tbf that sub’s rules are a joke.
1 Women only
3 Don’t hate on groups, hatefilled talk about groups is not allowed. Ever.
But the sub does a hell of a lot of man bashing behind the ridiculous fig leaf of ‘not all men’.
I block it.
Tell me you haven’t looked at a community without telling me you haven’t seen it.
The top post of this week is about chocolate.
The top post of this month is called “real men cry” and it’s about how men should be allowed to be emotionally vulnerable.
Funny enough, the top post of the last three months is a screenshot of:
“I see so many men saying feminism is bad. Please tell me which of my rights I don’t deserve as a woman. I’m curious.”
“I see so many men saying feminism is bad. Please tell me which of my rights I don’t deserve as a woman. I’m curious.”
If they were genuinely curious and wanted to know an answer to that question, then why would they post it in a community where men couldn’t respond? That seems disingenuous.
Why not go to 4chan or xitter and ask the men there why they don’t like feminism? Cause I assume that’s where they’re seeing all these “men saying feminism is bad.”
But generalizing it as all or most men doing this and then posting it somewhere only women can comment, just seems like they’re looking for a circlejerk/echo chamber where everyone will reaffirm their biases/assumptions.
Let’s also not pretend that every self-proclaimed “feminist” is solely concerned with her own rights. Lots of people on the internet call themselves feminists without really understanding a thing about feminism. You could more accurately call them “pseudo-feminists.” The “man-hating feminist” stereotype comes from somewhere, and the error is in calling them “feminists,” not in saying that they hate men.
If they’re reinforcing toxic masculinity culture, and instead of dismantling systems of oppression they make it their goal to participate in those structures as the oppressor, then they’re not feminists. But a lot of women do this while calling themselves feminists.
So I think a lot of the hate and criticism directed towards “feminism” is really directed towards pseudo-feminism, and people don’t understand the difference because how likely is someone to read bell hooks or carol gilligan when it seems like all the so-called “feminists” on social media are repeating stuff like “gatekeep, gaslight, girlboss” (which is literally just women participating in patriarchy, not dismantling it).
I mean if you don’t want people confusing feminism with pseudo-feminism, that’s fine and understandable. But you can’t really pretend all of the criticism directed at pseudo-feminism under the guise of feminism is exclusively geared towards removing women’s rights. By understanding the problem, you can begin to address it. So police your own, and call people out when they’re promoting pseudo-feminism and calling it “feminism.”
A good indicator, is that if someone is telling men that their feelings don’t matter, then they’re not really a feminist.
If they were genuinely curious and wanted to know an answer to that question, then why would they post it in a community where men couldn’t respond? That seems disingenuous.
It was a screenshot of a social media post.
Well, I haven’t looked at it for a while.
I’ve been there since it started.
Tell me, are the evil man-hating feminists in the room right now?
Well, you’re here, so…
Then again, the “feminist” part is kinda dubious, so maybe not.
Also, have you ever heard of the idea of subjectivity? That there may be no objective truth and that people can see and interpret the same acts in different ways?
Just a thought.
No. I’m new to words and concepts, please mansplain it to me.
So what you’re saying is that you’re not a troll?
You’re doing a brilliant job of selling the community.
I blocked the sub, don’t worry.
Then shut the fuck up about it. No one wants to hear you talking shit out of ignorance
I’m sorry that my (historic) experience of the community doesn’t align with what you need to believe.
And what experience was that? I mean, something you didn’t make up?
Because excluding diverse identities from a conference has that terfy taste. And including them has the “woman and people I believe to actually be woman” taste.
Just hang a pride flag. Those terfy people will stay away on their own or be clear recognizable.
Just hang a pride flag. Those terfy people will stay away
If only.
More often you get a line of “Debate Me” Bros trying to churn influence standing outside the front door hoping to bait a conflict
Makes you wonder why would someone make the sign below
Well, it doesn’t have to be in the sign. Just tiniest print in the event rules, buried somewhere in the website. That’s usually enough for this to happen.
In fairness, I’d be pretty miffed if I came along to support a cause or enjoy an event only to be told there was some fine print stating I wasn’t welcome and needed to leave.
Because whoever made it is misandrist.
I totally understand what is being said here. But the reality is that more than just penis havers can be bigots and more than just vagina havers need a safe space. Painting people with a wide brush is always going to upset some of the people being painted, especially those who don’t feel they should be included in said group. Reality is rarely inclusive of only two options.
Sure, these two comic panels aren’t very nuanced, and everyone deserves a safe space. But imo that is irrelevant to this issue, because they should create their own safe space then, not insist on intruding in someone else’s safe space. Like, why even?
What do you think the Gentleman’s Clubs, and Men only gyms were? Those were sued into non-existence. Women are the only people that are legally allowed to have a safe space because of feminists
‘Why don’t they just form their own safe space?’ has the same ring to it as ‘I’m not a white supremacist. I’m a racial separatist. Those <epithet>s can just go somewhere else. I just don’t feel safe with those things around.’ Discrimination based on an immutable, unchosen characteristic like sex isn’t somehow more acceptable or reasonable than on skin color.
Is it not more about dicussing their problem, in a space they created for it? Black Lifes Matter is a good example of this. Black people want to discuss their issues, and suddenly all lives matter and what about this and that group?
This is not saying that other problem does not exists or are any less real or problematic, but instead they someone should be able to talk about their perceived problem without being forced to include someone else’s problem. Those people with those other problems are just as welcome to have their own discussions.
Not quite. Black Lives Matter wasn’t excluding any supporters based on skin color, last I checked. There might have been a small subset who had some twisted racial theories but, for the most part, it was just people looking to fight racism in the police and happy to accept attendants of any color as long as they were aligned with that main goal. While it would be reasonable to not allow people who wanted to come into a meeting and either digress by focusing on the climate effects of police cruisers, or disrupt by trying to refocus the group around how the police treat some other ethnic group, if BLM had said ‘no whites allowed,’ I think it would have been far less effective, far more divisive, and ultimately promoted racism.
That’s why it seems counterproductive to exclude men. From an idealist view, if you believe being a man has some effect that means you can’t have something relevant to add to a conversation, or perhaps more importantly, can’t learn from hearing the words of others, that’s already sex essentialism, the thing feminists have been fighting for longer than feminist has been a word. And from a pragmatic view, the ones who MOST need to learn about the problems of sexism are the men who are so often blind to it as the beneficiaries of it. If you kick out the mysogynists, you have no mysogynists. If you kick out the men, you leave the men who could be allies standing outside with the mysogynists, who will be only too happy to tell them all about how men and women ‘should’ be.
In above comic it’s not the whole movement of feminism being closed to men, it’s only one conference.
And let’s be honest, the men that get upset by a women only conference are exactly the men you didn’t want there in the first place to talk about feminism.
This kind of signs create the picture of men associated with something bad. Next time try to pick words for such signs with more respect
That comparison in this context is honestly a bad look.
You’re comparing men, who have historically been the oppressors in pretty much every oppression scenario, to the groups of people they have historically oppressed. (POC, women, any marginalized group really.) That is a very important distinction because the power dynamics are reversed.
People wanting a single safe space away from a group of people who have victimized them in the past (and more often than not continue to victimize them) is not the same as a group of people who hold most of the power excluding a less powerful group from everyday activities because they deem them inferior.
And it’s not exactly a slippery slope towards the oppression of men either, just look at the current state of the world and try to figure out which way that slope is slipping. Women are fucking tired, man.
I didn’t know that I am an oppressor lol
We are all oppressed by the patriarchy, every older man I know born from 60s - 90s believes being emotional is weakness, don’t cry, don’t act like a woman. You’re basically not allowed to be you, and most remain extremely stunted their whole life. Discriminating based on sex is also hurting the men who didn’t want any part of this to begin with. Women have more danger and more men ruining things for them in general, so I don’t agree with them saying a safe space shouldn’t be restricted, but I just don’t think it’s so black and white.
There is an important distinction here. You, I presume, have a ‘safe space’ of your own, your home, or even just your room if you share. That is your personal space. It makes sense that only those you trust should come in. However, when you put up a sign, it changes a space. A sign, such as one announcing a conference or symposium, even with a barrier like ticketed/preregistered entry, says it is a public event. Not a ‘safe space,’ but a space specifically for encountering and engaging with others, the public. The public is a group that is supposed to include everyone. Excluding people from that group effectively designates them as unpeople. If it were to be invite only, a private space, there would be no argument if, say, the invitees were all women, but the transition to a public event, combined with the discrimination based on unchosen characteristics creates the offense of sexist discrimination. It is one thing to demand relevance (e.g. no entering a feminist conference to shout about misandry) but it is another to treat everyone who, through no choice of their own, happens to be some type of person as an unperson. It’s prejudicial bigotry.
This is one of the major reasons (among many others both real and manufactured) that the current right wing won over so many voters. And once they were won over it just takes another election cycle of propaganda to entrench them.
It doesn’t matter the various reasons someone will argue that race/sex/whateverelse ism is okay when it’s done against (white/men/straight/christian) because historically they are the oppressors. There is either true equality or there is nuance on equality and you really cannot have it both ways yourself without falling into the mirror image of the hypocrisy you are arguing against.
You could take almost the exact same logical argument that people use for women only shelters and use it for white only shelters, yet if said without any shred of irony one is easily classified as a form of prejudice and the other is not (by a portion of the population).
It’s tiring still pointing this out to people a decade later as they are at the same time doing the “how did we get here??” Song and dance about the current fascism.
Someone says dumb shit about women, i come for them. Someone says dumb shit about white people i don’t care. I certainly don’t start wailing and posting paragraphs about how oppressed i am.
Power dynamics . Learn them.
Uhhh why not lol? Some group being majority in power doesn’t mean everyone in that group is in power, and even if they are there’s no reason to divide people. I’m allied against billionaires because they are actively working to make my life worse, I’m not allied against my neighbor just because he’s white and has more money than I do.
You rail against billionaires because they’re untouchable to you.
POC rail against the white hegemony because it’s untouchable to them.
Where did this come from exactly, seems kinda unrelated
They understood being allied against billionaires but didnt understand “being allied against an entire group”
So i simplified it for them
Power dynamics may affect the scale and context of harm, but they do not make group-based contempt morally sound. If you object to demeaning people for belonging to a group, that standard must be general. Otherwise, you are not opposing prejudice, but are rationing sympathy instead.
Power dynamics . Learn them.
Never! I will only engage with discrimination at a superficial and naive level, falling for every concern troll post like I was born yesterday
Not me: I don’t understand what is being said here, and I’m not ashamed to admit it. What is this comic trying to say? I really can’t figure out a cohesive statement.
I really can’t figure out a cohesive statement.
“Fragile men are fragile” seems to be the statement.
Yeah, I can’t see anything else either.
If you want a space to talk, that’s cool. If you are publishing works, sorry, that should be under through review from every angle, regardless of gender, class, nationality, or any other form of segmentation.
Hey, look at the comment section, it’s the people the people from the comic.
Yeah, they’re miserable wretches. They’d be all better off having not existed.
EDIT: No one cares to explain why I’m wrong.
Hate speech is always wrong. No need to explain anything.
Eh, hate speech against Neo Nazis is fine by me.
They need to be treated exactly the way they treat others.
You might want to check what that actually means before accusing people.
The appropriate explanation is, maybe we shouldn’t advocate for the death of a diverse social group, also called a massacre?
The wokes are doing it again, calling for a massacre of misogynist professional misunderstanders
Not advocating for their death. I said it’d be better (for themselves and others) if they had not existed. Those are not the same things.
I was largely challenging the person I was responding to with a provocative statement that I nonetheless think would be consistent with their own views, assuming they’re a systemic thinker rather than a worthless virtue ethicist.
…I was responding to with a provocative statement….
You are clearly not articulate enough to make a clear statement that doesn’t come across as an attack. So how about this: don’t.
I remember when right wingers would get mad that women’s shelter wouldn’t take men or there’s wasn’t an equivalent for Ben. I’d tell them “we’ll start a men’s shelter”. Turns out people want to control other people.
Therw was a dude who did exactly that. Political feminists intent on the narrative that only women are victims fucking destoyed him
Lol true story vibes. I doubt it was 1 guy and I’m pretty sure women would be receptive to plight of men
I simply (shamefully) couldn’t remember his name. Earl Silverman
You really wanna read up on what happened.
Yeah looks like earl went broke running a men’s shelter nothing about feminist destroying him. Kinda just basic accounting, but shows that Earl was alone in his venture and not even other men helped or got involved
I’d tell them “we’ll start a men’s shelter”.
Never forget Earl Silverman
Earl died by suicide on April 26, 2013, shortly after selling the shelter due to bankruptcy and ridicule.[5][6][7]
“Feminism is for Everybody” is a lie, and Earl’s life proves it.
This shit still pisses me the fuck off.
Love how this always gets downvoted, but i grew up around foster kids in that area, and I promise you his effort would have saved lives.
Same with atheists who were trying to make genital mutilation blanket illegal in the states, as well as fighting groups like the heritage foundation who want to keep such classic patriarchal standards alive, but being against that means you obviously hate women and think MGM is worse than FGM, and other strawmen. It was enough to make both progressive groups hate each other, with accusations of SJWs or incels based on similar legitimate grievances on both sides.
Heritage foundation types have obviously been making record ground in the meantime.
For some reason progressive solidarity just isn’t possible, because we can’t help the wrong group of struggling people. Social signalling is obviously more important than cooperatively helping those who are suffering, or in stopping the wealthy from shaping the system to fuck everyone that isn’t already part of their grotesque fascist system.
Can’t stop the actual fascists if other progressives are all the real enemy for some incomprehensible reason that always makes it back to stupid issues like this, where we just can’t recognize the niche situation, or show basic compassion or solidarity within.
As long as we keep “punching up” we can ignore the foster kids who died alone, or festered into something negative because all they ever had was a non-life where they are simultaneously exploited and told they don’t deserve help because they share some intersectional features of privilege, as explained by people who obviously never fully understood intersectionality or how such high dimensional representations can be reasonably interpreted. Usually protected by some socialized bubble of privilege where they can just go with what is being socialized and not think too hard about it.
So it’s all a clusterfuck of people using the same words to say different things, and ignoring the forest for the trees.
But surely the problem is the incels, or SJWs, and not the system that exploits both and discourages either from co-constructively solving general problems of inequality.
Or just beat up the undiagnosed poverty autistic waiting to access the library, while feeling good about how much you are fighting the system of oppression.
Or like in silverman’s place, bully the person trying to help a group that doesn’t actually have access to help, and try to shame people who mention that crushing the potential men’s shelter did not actually do anything to benefit any progressive values.
These aren’t the billionaires or entrenched oligarchs that are actively shaping a society that individualizes blame in ways that ensure you never look at the lobby groups, or war machine, or people with the money generally fucking the system into their preferred fascist shape. Let’s go after the fucking homeless instead I guess, because they are the truly privileged oppressors.
Fucking Ben
